Nine

"Tell me, Subhuti. Do those who find the river think, "I have achieved the goal of finding the river'?"

Subhuti replied, "No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who find the river do not think, 'I have attained the goal of finding the river.' And why not? Bhagavan, they do not find any such dharma. Thus are they said to 'find the river.' They do not find a sight, nor do they find a sound, a smell, a taste, a touch or a dharma. Thus are they said to 'find the river.' Bhagavan, if those who found the river should think, 'I have attained the goal of finding the river,' they would be attached to a self, they would be attached to a being, a life, and a soul."

The Buddha said, "Tell me, SUbhuti. Do thopse who return once more think, 'I have attained the goal of returning once more'?"

Subhuti replied, "No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who return once more do not think, 'I have attained the goal of returning once more.' And why not? Bhagava, they do not find any such dharma as 'returning once more.' Thus are they said to `return once more.'"

The Buddha said, "Tell me, Subhuti. Do those who return no more think, `I have attained the goal of returning no more.'"

Subhuti replied, "No indeed, Bhagavan. Those who return no more do not think 'I have attained the goal of returning no more.' And why not? Bhagavan, they do not find any such dharma as 'returning no more.' Thus are they said to `return no more.'"

The Buddha said, "Tell me Subhuti. Do those who are free from rebirth think, 'I have attained freedom from rebirth'?"

Subhuti replied, "No, indeed, Bhagavan. Those who are free from rebirth do not think, "I have attained freedom from rebirth.' And why not? Bhagavan, there is no such dharma as 'freedom from rebirth." Thus are they said to be 'free from rebirth.' If, Bhagavan, those who are free from rebirth should think, 'I have attained freedom from rebirth,' they would be attached to a self, they would be attached to a being, a life, and a soul.

"And how so? Bhagavan, the Tathagata, the Arhan, the Fully-Enlightened One has declared that I am foremost among those who dwell free of passion. Bhagavan, although I am free from rebirth and without desires, I do not think, 'I am free from rebirth and without desires.' Bhagavan, if I thought, 'I have attained freedom from rebirth,' the Tathagata would not have singled me out by saying, 'Foremost among those who dwell free of passion is the noble son Subhuti. For he dwells nowhere at all. Thus is he called one who dwells free of passion who "dwells free of passion."'" [Translation: Red Pine]

"What do you think, Subhuti," Buddha asked, "does one who has entered the stream which flows to enlightenment, say "I have entered the stream'?"

"No Buddha," Subhuti replied. "For he has won no dharma and therefore he is called one who has entered the stream. No objects of sight or hearing have been won, no smells or tastes, no objects of touch, or even objects of mind. Thus he is called one ho has entered the stream. If the thought 'the fruit of entering the stream has been attained by me' occurred to such a one, then he would be seizing upon a self, or personality, a soul or a concept of being."

Buddha asked: "Subhuti, do you think that one who has to return but once again, ever entertains the thought 'the fruit of a once-returner is mine'?"

"No Buddha," Subhuti replied. "For nothing ultimately real has won the status of a once-returner: that is why he is called once-returner."

"Do you think," Buddha asked, "that the one who will not return at all, ever thinks 'the fruit of the never-returner is mine'?"

"No, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "For nothing which can be considered ultimately real has won the status of a never-returner'."

"Then," Buddha asked, "does the fully enlightened one ever think 'full enlightenment is mine'?"

"Indeed not," Subhuti answered, "for nothing ultimately real is called fully enlightened, and that is why one who is fully enlightened is called fully enlightened. If one who is fully enlightened ever thought 'the fruit of a being fully enlightened is mine,' he would grasp a self, a personality, a soul or a concept of being." [Translation: Joshua Pritikin]

"Subhuti, what do you think---can a stream-enterer think, 'I have attained the fruition of stream-entering'?"

Subhuti said, "No, World Honored One. Why? A stream-enterer is called one who enters the stream, yet does not enter anything. One does not enter form, sound, scent, flavor, feeling, or phenomena---this is called a stream-enterer."

"Subhuti, what do you think---can a once-returner entertain the thought, 'I have attained the fruition of once-returning'?"

Subhuti said, "No, World Honored One. Why? A once-returner is called one who goes and comes back once, but really has no going or coming---this is called once-returning."

"Subhuti, what do you think---can a nonreturner entertain the thought,'I have attained the fruition of nonreturn'?"

Subhuti said, "No, World Honored One. A nonreturner is called one who does not come back, yet in reality there is no coming, and that is the reason for the name nonreturner."

"Subhuti, what do you think---can a saint entertain the thought, 'I have attained sainthood'?"

Subhuti said, "No, World Honored One. Why? There is no state called sainthood. World Honored One, if saints were to entertain the notion, 'I have attained sainthood,' that would be a fixation on self, person, being, and a liver of life. World Honored One, you say I have attained absorbtion in noncontention better than anyone else, and I am the saint most detached from desire. I do not entertain the thought that I am a saint detached from desire. World Honored One, if I were to entertain the thought that I have attained sainthood, then the World Honored One would not say Subhuti likes to frequent the wilderness. It is because Subhuti really frequents nothing that it is said Subhuti likes to frequent the wilderness." [Translated by Thomas Cleary]